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The three Ts. Lift the lid on the secrets of how you do things so others can have a go.....

Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cables

Postby hank55 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:15 am

Hi folks, greetings from Czechia. Coming back after a pause caused by healthy and family troubles.

I am seeking with difficulty bits of information referring to using the Eishindo sensor cables, one-way and one-direction cables. "Using" means in this respect utilising them other ways except those described in the manufacturer's instructions. I have been able to find only two standard ways how to use them: Shuttle operations, i.e. simple automated rides of a single trainset on a single track there and back, and crossing trains, i.e. enabling to arrive two trainsets in a passing loop simultaneously in opposite directions (and leave the loop as well, naturally...) using the sole power box.

To be honest, utilising some products is not fully clear to me. For example: Is it possible to use this one-way cable in a reverse loop to switch the traction polarity w/o installing additional elements like diodes or rectifying diode bridges? And how should I connect the thing using this standard power box? I understand that combining the one-way cable with the sensor cable in the loop should cause the following sequence: 1st step - the train arrives the loop and stops; 2nd step - the polarity is switched; 3rd step - the train leaves the loop in the same direction without changing the polarity on the power box. Is it correct? And could anybody please sketch a respective connection incl. the respective track modifications, i.e. exact placing and power feeding of an isolated track section referring to placing the sensor?

There are more such questions occuring in my mind but I do not want to wallpaper this thread. So, if you know and have tried more ways of utilising the Eishindo specialised power-feed accessories I would be glad and appreciate much if you could advise me.

Looking forward to your ideas.
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Re: Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cable

Postby Reith01 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:26 pm

Were it me, I'd take one of their sensors apart and carefully measure what happens. I presume the gate-type sensor through which a train passes
is a phototransistor with a light source triggered by its interruption - I don't know though - has anyone got one?

Phototransistors are easy to use and can be output to a simple transistor (wired as a switch) in turn working e.g. a relay.
I've just bought a couple of Vishay BPW17N (because they're small but they're also relatively expensive compared to a 3mm one.

It would have been cheaper to buy one of Eishindo's but like you I wanted to explore beyond!

As for cables and reverse loops, - you probably know this so please skip ahead if so - a reverse loop normally needs an isolating section
on which the train can stop and the track polarity switched. I imagine the train needn't stop if the switching is done
with a relay but the track break is necessary.

I don't know about Eishindo's one-way cables. It looks like they have a series diode fronted by a pair of LEDs - Red shows when the diode
has blocked current flow, etc. I can't think what use they serve other than ensure the train only runs in one direction. If I'm right then
they'd be easy to run up.

I use this arrangement on an end to end test track to prevent trains hurling themselves into oblivion but it's just a diode wired across a track break.
The train reaches it, stops and leaves the only option to reverse out.

Have you discovered anything more? Train detection is always an interest.

Cheers,
Ivor.
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Re: Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cable

Postby inmontanis » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:09 pm

I've just begun playing with t-gauge this week, and I ordered a few more things to check this, but I have a few thoughts to use those cables and sensors:

As far as I understand, the Power-A and Power-B cable are either on or off, so depending on the direction on the controller, let's say the A-cable is either "off" or "+-" whereas B-cable is either "off" or "-+" (cause the controller switched polarity when changing direction), so ..
.. if both cables are mounted parallel on the same track, it should behave like the standard power cable - or is there any difference?
.. if both cables are mounted in opposite direction on the same track, it should be the same as the one-direction-power-cable instead?

If my thoughts are true, the following ideas could be possible

1)
tg-test1.JPG
tg-test1.JPG (12 KiB) Viewed 1351 times

Blue = isolated track with Power-A-Cable
Red = isolated track with Power B-Cable
Green = Standard power-cable or both A- & B- cable (if there is a difference)
Yellow = a long train, controlled by a second controller
S = a sensor attached to the controller of the short upper train

So suppose the upper train with power direction in mode A goes to the right until in reaches the isolated track B, then stops. When the yellow train passes the sensor S the direction of the upper train is switched to B and the train goes to the left, stopping in the isolated track A and waiting for another yellow train passing sensor S.
This could be handy to time the start of the upper train with the passing of the yellow train (e.g. on a station), also it could mean that the upper train will not run so often. I think about a short incline railway which would run too often in a standard controller setup with the sensors on both ends.

(A second sensor of the upper train controller could be attached to another position on the yellow train to make it run more often.)

2) Thinking about a closed track and more trains on the track running in the same direction. You can only attach 2 sensors per controller, and this would mean that all trains stop at the same time. With the A- or B-Cable you could maybe have more stops and trains not stopping all at the same time, but at predefined positions or stations. (After the "direction"-switch all would start at the same time of course, however.)

tg-test2.JPG
tg-test2.JPG (24.47 KiB) Viewed 1351 times


Blue = all Power-A-Cables (or all Power-B, the correct wiring/polarity as needed should be checked and maybe reverse mounted anyway)
Orange = one-direction-cable
Yellow = a long train, controlled by a second controller
S,S* = both sensors attached to the controller of the upper train

Supposing the train direction is clockwise and two trains are on the track, the trains are on the blue Power-A-tracks, actual direction is B, so they won't run. When the yellow train passes the sensor S, the power on the upper train is changed to A, so both trains are running.

When the train from starting point 2 reaches the sensor S* in the circle, the power is reveresed to B, but because of the one-direction-cable on the orange track, the trains continue until they reach the isolated and now again powered off tracks on point 1 or 2. Here they stop again waiting for a yellow train crossing the sensor on S and then both trains in the circle will run again ..

If this works as expected, this could be expanded to more stops and more trains on a longer track.

If there are more blue tracks than trains and sometimes no train passing the sensor marked S*, all trains would continue through the blue tracks until one passes S* or a yellow train passes S, then they will stop again on the next blue track. Depending on the timing of the yellow train this could happen when one train is on a blue track and others are not - could maybe end in a congestion somewhen.


3) Another, slight changing to this could be:

tg-test3.JPG
tg-test3.JPG (25.47 KiB) Viewed 1351 times


Blue = all Power-A-Cables (the correct wiring/polarity as needed should be checked)
Dark Blue = Power-B-Cable connected in the opposite direction (so the train should go in the same direction as on the A-track, but only if the power is in direction-mode B).
Orange = one-direction-cable
Yellow = a long train, controlled by a second controller
S,S* = both sensors attached to the controller of the upper train

Supposing the train direction is clockwise and two trains are on the track, the trains are on the blue Power-A-tracks, position 1 and 2, actual direction is B, so they won't run. When the yellow train passes the sensor S, the power on the upper train is changed to A, so both trains start running.

The train from point 2 should go to point 3 (now off-powered) and stop. In the same time, the train from point 1 moves along the orange track until reaching sensor S*, so the power is reveresed to B, but because of the one-direction-cable on the orange track, the train from 1 continues its way to 2. However the other train, which stopped at 3, should start moving now. Both trains should move now to 1 or 2, stopping there.

Not sure if it works as well when the dark blue track is directly behind a light blue track, is to be tested. Would be cheaper and easier though, less power cables ..

Again, if this works as expected, this could be expanded to more stops and more trains on a longer track.

Again, if there are more blue tracks than trains and no train passing the sensor marked S*, all trains would continue through the blue tracks until one passes S* or reaching the dark blue tracks or a yellow train passes S, then they will stop again. Depending on the timing of the yellow train this could happen when one train is on a blue track and others are not - could maybe end in a congestion somewhen, so depending on the setup it could (should) be wise to have the light-blue(A)- and dark-blue(B)-tracks alternating. Having, say, 8 stops with 2 trains would make the S* sensor on this track a bit pointless and could be moved to another point of the yellow track train (or even another track).

-

Not sure about this, but maybe it's better (in all those 3 cases with the isolated tracks) using just single motorized trains. However, as I'd like to have this setup on a tramway-track, this wouldn't bother me. Thinking about 3-5 trams on the track with around 5-10 stops, if it's working. Of course, some intelligent, programmable controller could do the same even better (starting the trains in the various sections randomly etc.) - but I think I'm not ready for this step yet ;)


Ok, anyone tried on of those ideas already? Working or not?
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Re: Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cable

Postby dkightley » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:32 pm

Having just read this thread in detail....I've been distracted by taking The Bridge to the NEC......I have a possible application for inmontanis's first sensor switching option.

I'm considering the bridges at Saltash as my next project and there's a single track branch line that runs on and off the area I'm thinking of modelling....and the technique described would drop right into place for controlling a DMU shuttle service on that line. Whenever a train approaches the Royal Albert Bridge, the sensor is triggered, and the (probable) single car DMU does a run one way....and goes back whenever another train goes over the bridge. Take a look at the thread I've started in the Layout section to see the track layout I'm describing...
Doug Kightley
Webmaster here and volunteer at the National Tramway Museum http://www.tramway.co.uk
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Re: Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cable

Postby Ozrail » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:45 pm

I don't know if this is the same thing as to what you are achieving.
(I'm struggling to read all the text at nearly 10pm at night.)

But I have used a One-way cable and a one-directional on my layout to run 2 trains in a relay-race type of method.

The one direction cable is used to house a train in the back of the layout via isolated section, while the one way powers the rest of the layout.
When the train is about 3/4 around the layout it hits a sensor to release the holding train.

My only problem with this set up is that it works best with one car units, unless you run them at high speeds.
Due to the gaps between the carriages, can retriggering the sensor at slower speeds.


The good thing about your set up is that you don't have point works, which also seem to effect my layout runnings.
Check out my Shapeways store for T-gauge stuff.
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Re: Utilising sensors, power one-way and one-direction cable

Postby inmontanis » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:32 pm

Sorry for being late (my primary passion is skiing), but I did the tests of my ideas a few weeks ago and made a few video clips:

1: works quite good



2: it stutters at S*, because there is a small delay in the controller while switching power -> so another controller (with any power cable correctly installed) is better.





3: I hadn't enough material to try that out in a circle, however I suppose it should work as well and I think I tried it without the track marked "1". I did try to put the dark blue (3) right behind the light blue (2) without the orange between, but this didn't work, as the locomotive doesn't seem to get power from both ends or at least not always.

However, I did some other test with a crossing (note that the position of the sensors change at 0:20) :




So .. it works, but you need many isolated tracks and many power cables attached to the tracks ..
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